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	<title>Comments on: What Luther (et al.) Didn&#8217;t Know</title>
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	<description>From the mixed-up files of Christopher Kou</description>
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		<title>By: Christopher Kou</title>
		<link>http://chriskou.com/2010/02/02/what-luther-et-al-didnt-know/comment-page-1/#comment-4413</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Oct 2010 14:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chriskou.com/?p=1314#comment-4413</guid>
		<description>Hey, Suzannah!

Well, I wouldn&#039;t say the Reformers had any problem with James as a general rule.  As far as I know that was just Luther, and he came around eventually.  Calvin, for instance, has no problem with James.

Is this New Perspective?  I don&#039;t know.  What is that, exactly?  I think this is more perhaps a new perspective not so much on Paul as it is on the Jews in general.  Will that affect how we read Paul?  Somewhat, I suppose.  But I don&#039;t think it necessitates a total revision of Pauline theology.  Essentially, I think the Reformers got Paul right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, Suzannah!</p>
<p>Well, I wouldn&#8217;t say the Reformers had any problem with James as a general rule.  As far as I know that was just Luther, and he came around eventually.  Calvin, for instance, has no problem with James.</p>
<p>Is this New Perspective?  I don&#8217;t know.  What is that, exactly?  I think this is more perhaps a new perspective not so much on Paul as it is on the Jews in general.  Will that affect how we read Paul?  Somewhat, I suppose.  But I don&#8217;t think it necessitates a total revision of Pauline theology.  Essentially, I think the Reformers got Paul right.</p>
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		<title>By: Suzannah</title>
		<link>http://chriskou.com/2010/02/02/what-luther-et-al-didnt-know/comment-page-1/#comment-4412</link>
		<dc:creator>Suzannah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Oct 2010 08:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chriskou.com/?p=1314#comment-4412</guid>
		<description>This must be the New Perspective on Paul :).

I&#039;m late to the party, but I find that Essene hymn surprising, especially I&#039;ve been reading through Psalms lately. In every other Psalm David reminds God to judge him according to his uprightness. So for example, Psalm 26...&quot;Examine me, O Lord, and prove me; try my reins and my heart. For thy lovingkindness is before mine eyes: and I have walked in thy truth.&quot; I&#039;m probably not getting all the nuances of the texts, but I&#039;m surprised that the Reformers had a problem with James, but not these!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This must be the New Perspective on Paul <img src='http://chriskou.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> .</p>
<p>I&#8217;m late to the party, but I find that Essene hymn surprising, especially I&#8217;ve been reading through Psalms lately. In every other Psalm David reminds God to judge him according to his uprightness. So for example, Psalm 26&#8230;&#8221;Examine me, O Lord, and prove me; try my reins and my heart. For thy lovingkindness is before mine eyes: and I have walked in thy truth.&#8221; I&#8217;m probably not getting all the nuances of the texts, but I&#8217;m surprised that the Reformers had a problem with James, but not these!</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Sedlak</title>
		<link>http://chriskou.com/2010/02/02/what-luther-et-al-didnt-know/comment-page-1/#comment-4255</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Sedlak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 15:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chriskou.com/?p=1314#comment-4255</guid>
		<description>It is interesting that the Qumran sect did hold strongly (in writing) to the &quot;sovereignty&quot; of God, but yet the dead sea scrolls themselves are not characterized by treating God as sovereign....They just talked a lot about his sovereignty. If anything characterizes their scribal copying, it would not be characterized as treating it like God&#039;s own Word. I would characterize it to be more like &quot;scribal creative freedom.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is interesting that the Qumran sect did hold strongly (in writing) to the &#8220;sovereignty&#8221; of God, but yet the dead sea scrolls themselves are not characterized by treating God as sovereign&#8230;.They just talked a lot about his sovereignty. If anything characterizes their scribal copying, it would not be characterized as treating it like God&#8217;s own Word. I would characterize it to be more like &#8220;scribal creative freedom.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Kou</title>
		<link>http://chriskou.com/2010/02/02/what-luther-et-al-didnt-know/comment-page-1/#comment-4254</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 06:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chriskou.com/?p=1314#comment-4254</guid>
		<description>Jonathan, thanks for your well thought out comment and your contribution here in the details on the Qumran community.  Yes, I agree, the &quot;conservatism&quot; of the Essenes is not something that we should consider exemplary by any stretch of the imagination.  I probably should have made that clear.

I am sure Luther and the Reformers knew OF the Essenes.  But they probably had only Josephus to go by, and Josephus really oversimplifies the complexities of the community.  That&#039;s why I suggested that they did not know quite what we know.

My article here was simply to highlight the apparent contradiction between the ultra-conservatism of the Qumran community and adherence to what we (and I am sure Paul) would certainly call &quot;works of the law&quot; as opposed to their hymn which seems to espouse justification by grace apart from merit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan, thanks for your well thought out comment and your contribution here in the details on the Qumran community.  Yes, I agree, the &#8220;conservatism&#8221; of the Essenes is not something that we should consider exemplary by any stretch of the imagination.  I probably should have made that clear.</p>
<p>I am sure Luther and the Reformers knew OF the Essenes.  But they probably had only Josephus to go by, and Josephus really oversimplifies the complexities of the community.  That&#8217;s why I suggested that they did not know quite what we know.</p>
<p>My article here was simply to highlight the apparent contradiction between the ultra-conservatism of the Qumran community and adherence to what we (and I am sure Paul) would certainly call &#8220;works of the law&#8221; as opposed to their hymn which seems to espouse justification by grace apart from merit.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Sedlak</title>
		<link>http://chriskou.com/2010/02/02/what-luther-et-al-didnt-know/comment-page-1/#comment-4251</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Sedlak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 20:10:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chriskou.com/?p=1314#comment-4251</guid>
		<description>Perhaps two things are worth some more thought: 1) Claims which appear to discredit Luther and the Reformers for needing a better understanding of Judaism through such finds as the Dead Sea Scrolls, and 2) The character of the Essenes which we know more of now through the Scrolls and the traditional, ecclesiastical text of the Book of Hebrews.

1) Presumably the Essene community was known by Luther and the Reformers, although I know of no exclusive treatise from Luther or the reformers about that community. It was certainly known by Josephus (e.g. Antiquities, xvii, 21) and I haven&#039;t found any argument yet outside this article which leads me to believe that they didn&#039;t have resources similar to that of Josephus. 

Furthermore, according to my own studies, I have not found the Essene community to be conservative in any &#039;kind&#039; sense of the term. The Essene&#039;s were characterized by strict &quot;communal solidarity&quot; which FAR exceeds biblical moderation in terms of a covenantal community. (Although I do have great respect for some of the stands they took in their community rules.) 

Even within the 1Qs itself 
(which you quoted above), we find explicit references to being a part of their community, and not just a covenantal community in general. Prior to the Hymn, it states that any man who &quot;refuses to enter the covenant of God&quot; with them &quot;walks in the stubbornness of his heart, for his soul detests the wise teaching of just laws. His knowledge, powers, and possessions shall not enter the Council of the Community...He shall not be reckoned among the perfect; he shall neither be purified by atonement, nor cleansed by purifying waters, nor sanctified by seas and rivers, nor washed clean with any ablution.&quot;

Furthermore, their literature is notorious for treating the doctrine of election as taught in the Palestinian Talmud and other Rabbinical doctrines as being too elastic. Their attitude in regard to the Covenant was that only the initiates of their own &quot;new covenant&quot; were to be reckoned among God&#039;s elect and, as such, united already on earth with the angels of heaven. 1Qs states that &quot;God has given them to His chosen ones and has caused them to inherit the lot of the Holy Ones. He has joined their assembly to the Sons of Heaven, to be a a Council of the Community, a foundation of the Building of Holiness, an eternal Plantation throughout all ages to come.&quot;

These kinds of categorical claims are found in excess throughout 1Qs, and I (personally) do not find them to be conservative in any kind sense of the term, because they give an impression that one cannot be justified without entering into their &quot;covenantal community,&quot; primarily because their community was in &quot;true&quot; covenant with God. So, even though the hymn you cited expresses one aspect of their views of justification (and I must say, the entirety of that hymn is marvelous), it does not cover their community&#039;s emphasis found outside their hymns and liturgy. And so, the argument of their &quot;conservative&quot; hymn teaching justification does not do justice to their teaching of justification outside that hymn, which I presume was understood by Luther and other Reformers who glanced through what was known about the Essenes.

Let&#039;s not forget, that at a glance, certain characteristics of the Essenes could very well have been understood by Luther and the reformers simply because of the works of Josephus and his sources (e.g. an Essene was forbidden to eat food prepared by people not belonging to the brotherhood, Wars II,143 - an Essene took a baptismal bath twice daily before meals, Wars II, 129, 132, and also 4Q414). So maybe Luther and the Reformers weren&#039;t so naive after all (even without the Dead Sea Scrolls hymn).

2) It&#039;s also interesting to note that the Book of Hebrews begins attacking certain doctrines which we know now to be taught exclusively among the Essene Community; the most important of which involved their eschatology. 

The Essenes taught that in the eschatalogical age (soon to come in their own day) God would reign supreme over all, but not by taking upon Himself human nature as the Messiah, but rather sending &quot;The Prince of the Congregation,&quot; also known as the &quot;Prince of light&quot; who is Michael the archangel, a.k.a. Melchizedek. According to their own literature, Michael the archangel would be sent to usher in the &quot;last days&quot; and God would put all enemies under Michael&#039;s feet. But that&#039;s not all, God would call three human beings (already existing) to become individual Messiah&#039;s (one priest Messiah, one King Messiah, and one Prophet Messiah)that would reign over all the earth to subdue evil and bring in the new heavens and new earth. (For starters, review IQM xviii, 4Q285, 4Q161, 4Q266, 1QSb v, 21, 25, 28, 4QpIsa, 4Q161, IQM xv, 4; xvi, 13; xviii, 5, IQs ix, 11)

Ironically, all of these views are the first to be dealt with step by step in the first few chapters of Hebrews. And so, seeing that these interpretations of the Essenes are known to us now, and the book of Hebrews sheds light on this being known early in church history, it is my position that Christians today would be wise to avoid praising the Essene community in their treatment of scripture. 

I at least do not view them as conservative in its Godly sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps two things are worth some more thought: 1) Claims which appear to discredit Luther and the Reformers for needing a better understanding of Judaism through such finds as the Dead Sea Scrolls, and 2) The character of the Essenes which we know more of now through the Scrolls and the traditional, ecclesiastical text of the Book of Hebrews.</p>
<p>1) Presumably the Essene community was known by Luther and the Reformers, although I know of no exclusive treatise from Luther or the reformers about that community. It was certainly known by Josephus (e.g. Antiquities, xvii, 21) and I haven&#8217;t found any argument yet outside this article which leads me to believe that they didn&#8217;t have resources similar to that of Josephus. </p>
<p>Furthermore, according to my own studies, I have not found the Essene community to be conservative in any &#8216;kind&#8217; sense of the term. The Essene&#8217;s were characterized by strict &#8220;communal solidarity&#8221; which FAR exceeds biblical moderation in terms of a covenantal community. (Although I do have great respect for some of the stands they took in their community rules.) </p>
<p>Even within the 1Qs itself<br />
(which you quoted above), we find explicit references to being a part of their community, and not just a covenantal community in general. Prior to the Hymn, it states that any man who &#8220;refuses to enter the covenant of God&#8221; with them &#8220;walks in the stubbornness of his heart, for his soul detests the wise teaching of just laws. His knowledge, powers, and possessions shall not enter the Council of the Community&#8230;He shall not be reckoned among the perfect; he shall neither be purified by atonement, nor cleansed by purifying waters, nor sanctified by seas and rivers, nor washed clean with any ablution.&#8221;</p>
<p>Furthermore, their literature is notorious for treating the doctrine of election as taught in the Palestinian Talmud and other Rabbinical doctrines as being too elastic. Their attitude in regard to the Covenant was that only the initiates of their own &#8220;new covenant&#8221; were to be reckoned among God&#8217;s elect and, as such, united already on earth with the angels of heaven. 1Qs states that &#8220;God has given them to His chosen ones and has caused them to inherit the lot of the Holy Ones. He has joined their assembly to the Sons of Heaven, to be a a Council of the Community, a foundation of the Building of Holiness, an eternal Plantation throughout all ages to come.&#8221;</p>
<p>These kinds of categorical claims are found in excess throughout 1Qs, and I (personally) do not find them to be conservative in any kind sense of the term, because they give an impression that one cannot be justified without entering into their &#8220;covenantal community,&#8221; primarily because their community was in &#8220;true&#8221; covenant with God. So, even though the hymn you cited expresses one aspect of their views of justification (and I must say, the entirety of that hymn is marvelous), it does not cover their community&#8217;s emphasis found outside their hymns and liturgy. And so, the argument of their &#8220;conservative&#8221; hymn teaching justification does not do justice to their teaching of justification outside that hymn, which I presume was understood by Luther and other Reformers who glanced through what was known about the Essenes.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s not forget, that at a glance, certain characteristics of the Essenes could very well have been understood by Luther and the reformers simply because of the works of Josephus and his sources (e.g. an Essene was forbidden to eat food prepared by people not belonging to the brotherhood, Wars II,143 &#8211; an Essene took a baptismal bath twice daily before meals, Wars II, 129, 132, and also 4Q414). So maybe Luther and the Reformers weren&#8217;t so naive after all (even without the Dead Sea Scrolls hymn).</p>
<p>2) It&#8217;s also interesting to note that the Book of Hebrews begins attacking certain doctrines which we know now to be taught exclusively among the Essene Community; the most important of which involved their eschatology. </p>
<p>The Essenes taught that in the eschatalogical age (soon to come in their own day) God would reign supreme over all, but not by taking upon Himself human nature as the Messiah, but rather sending &#8220;The Prince of the Congregation,&#8221; also known as the &#8220;Prince of light&#8221; who is Michael the archangel, a.k.a. Melchizedek. According to their own literature, Michael the archangel would be sent to usher in the &#8220;last days&#8221; and God would put all enemies under Michael&#8217;s feet. But that&#8217;s not all, God would call three human beings (already existing) to become individual Messiah&#8217;s (one priest Messiah, one King Messiah, and one Prophet Messiah)that would reign over all the earth to subdue evil and bring in the new heavens and new earth. (For starters, review IQM xviii, 4Q285, 4Q161, 4Q266, 1QSb v, 21, 25, 28, 4QpIsa, 4Q161, IQM xv, 4; xvi, 13; xviii, 5, IQs ix, 11)</p>
<p>Ironically, all of these views are the first to be dealt with step by step in the first few chapters of Hebrews. And so, seeing that these interpretations of the Essenes are known to us now, and the book of Hebrews sheds light on this being known early in church history, it is my position that Christians today would be wise to avoid praising the Essene community in their treatment of scripture. </p>
<p>I at least do not view them as conservative in its Godly sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Sand-age</title>
		<link>http://chriskou.com/2010/02/02/what-luther-et-al-didnt-know/comment-page-1/#comment-4144</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Sand-age</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 00:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chriskou.com/?p=1314#comment-4144</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s always a joy to read you, Christopher.  I&#039;m curious to hear what you have to say about the later parts of John 6, specifically:28Then they said to him, &quot;What must we do, to be doing the works of God?&quot; 29Jesus answered them, &quot;This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.&quot; 30So they said to him, &quot;Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, &#039;He gave them bread from heaven to eat.&#039;&quot; 32Jesus then said to them, &quot;Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.&quot; 34They said to him, &quot;Sir, give us this bread always.&quot; 35Jesus said to them,  &quot;I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#039;s always a joy to read you, Christopher.  I&#039;m curious to hear what you have to say about the later parts of John 6, specifically:28Then they said to him, &quot;What must we do, to be doing the works of God?&quot; 29Jesus answered them, &quot;This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.&quot; 30So they said to him, &quot;Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, &#039;He gave them bread from heaven to eat.&#039;&quot; 32Jesus then said to them, &quot;Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.&quot; 34They said to him, &quot;Sir, give us this bread always.&quot; 35Jesus said to them,  &quot;I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.&quot;</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Kou</title>
		<link>http://chriskou.com/2010/02/02/what-luther-et-al-didnt-know/comment-page-1/#comment-3882</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Kou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chriskou.com/?p=1314#comment-3882</guid>
		<description>The point of the circumcision is not a works-earning point.  It is a sign of covenant.  It is basically being a part of the community.  For a Jew to say &quot;you must be circumcised&quot; and &quot;you must be a Jew&quot; is the same thing.  It was not seen as some sort of way to score merit points, and so has no real correlation to the medieval Roman Catholic teachings on works or infused righteousness.James did know what he was talking about, and still he gave us the ONLY place in the Bible where we can find the phrase &quot;faith alone.&quot;  The problem for modern sloganeering Reformed Christians is that he says &quot;a person is justified by works, and NOT by faith alone.&quot;  To then insist that works in general (not &quot;works of the law&quot; which Paul speaks of) holds no role or instrumentality in justification at all, is to simply disregard James.Also, to say James is talking about Christ&#039;s works and not ours here does not make sense in the context.  He is clearly talking about the works of the believer, which are the fruits of faith.  I would have to say with James that works are instrumental and necessary to justification, but surely not the grounds.  For when we say that &quot;faith without works is not faith (or dead, as James says),&quot; we must logically conclude that works are a REQUIREMENT to validate faith, and thus for justification.  This is why it is so important to understand how Paul and James differ in what they mean by the very particular &quot;works of the law&quot; and the more general &quot;works.&quot;Until we can loudly declare with James that &quot;man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone,&quot; and know what we mean by that, and still know how to reconcile it with what the Reformers meant by &quot;Sola Fide,&quot; we are not doing justice to either Paul or James.One of the difficulties is that in Latin, &quot;faith&quot; has two words: fide and credo.  Credo means belief.  Fide has a closer meaning to faithfulness, which includes works resulting from credo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point of the circumcision is not a works-earning point.  It is a sign of covenant.  It is basically being a part of the community.  For a Jew to say &quot;you must be circumcised&quot; and &quot;you must be a Jew&quot; is the same thing.  It was not seen as some sort of way to score merit points, and so has no real correlation to the medieval Roman Catholic teachings on works or infused righteousness.James did know what he was talking about, and still he gave us the ONLY place in the Bible where we can find the phrase &quot;faith alone.&quot;  The problem for modern sloganeering Reformed Christians is that he says &quot;a person is justified by works, and NOT by faith alone.&quot;  To then insist that works in general (not &quot;works of the law&quot; which Paul speaks of) holds no role or instrumentality in justification at all, is to simply disregard James.Also, to say James is talking about Christ&#039;s works and not ours here does not make sense in the context.  He is clearly talking about the works of the believer, which are the fruits of faith.  I would have to say with James that works are instrumental and necessary to justification, but surely not the grounds.  For when we say that &quot;faith without works is not faith (or dead, as James says),&quot; we must logically conclude that works are a REQUIREMENT to validate faith, and thus for justification.  This is why it is so important to understand how Paul and James differ in what they mean by the very particular &quot;works of the law&quot; and the more general &quot;works.&quot;Until we can loudly declare with James that &quot;man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone,&quot; and know what we mean by that, and still know how to reconcile it with what the Reformers meant by &quot;Sola Fide,&quot; we are not doing justice to either Paul or James.One of the difficulties is that in Latin, &quot;faith&quot; has two words: fide and credo.  Credo means belief.  Fide has a closer meaning to faithfulness, which includes works resulting from credo.</p>
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